The François de Montferrand family Mysteries

Sébastien Richer sends a very nice set of photos showing a group of five veteran and edwardian motorcars that once were owned by the family of François de Montferrand. We presume the picture above is the oldest car. Is the shortnosed high-wheeler a Daimler built 1899-ish Phoenix? A veteran connoisseur told us that the brass wheel under the right hand of the driver most probably is a handbrake. Correct?
In the four thumbnails above photo 1 and photo 3 show the same 'landaulette' from both sides. Year around 1908? Honestly we haven't the slightest...
Photo 2 of the thumbnails is a high quality open driver limousine. 1907/08 Panhard et Levassor perhaps?
Last car has strong Renault looks, yet we doubt if it really is Renault, the nose seems angled somewhat steeper than with the products of Billancourt. Even more intriguing is the transparant 'perspex' avant la lettre screen in front of the passengers.

We're hungry to devour your comments!
(Do you have unindentified cars in your family album? Let us know.)

Pubblicato:

martedì marzo 8th, 2016

Sconosciuto

12 Marzo 2016, 18:23

Sorry, but the two Landaulettes on Photo 2 (or isn't it 3?) and 4 cannot be the same car viewed from different sides. Look at the sidelamps at the windscreen, the number of spokes on the rear Wheel, the cooling Slots on the bonnet sides.
Nr. 4 can be the Clement Bayard AC4, but Nr 3 Looks more like a De Dion V-8.

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Sconosciuto

09 Marzo 2016, 22:45

Last picture: Charron Limited 4 cyl 10 cv or 12 cv 1908/09

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Sconosciuto

09 Marzo 2016, 14:16

With respect to the Clément I must correct myself. It is of course a Clément-Bayard. After Adolphe Clément left his firm in 1903, he started to build cars under the name Bayard, also called Bayard-Clément, but later changed to Clément-Bayard.
The wheel on the Panhard & Levassor is indeed a brake wheel, similar to the ones sometimes used on horse-drawn carriages.

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Sconosciuto

09 Marzo 2016, 13:26

I agree completely with John Hughes, though there was some confusion in the photo numbering Photos nr. 2 and 4 are both Clement-Talbot and apparently the same landaulette, viewed from different sides. About the Renault, which it is of course, why is it not an Arrol-Johnston? Unfortunately the front lights hide an important clue, the grip on the bonnet, which is different for both cars. Another feature is however very evident: Renault normally had 12-spoke front wheels with an equal set of bolts for the larger cars (half of this number for the smaller ones), whereas the Arrol-Johnston had 10-spoke wheels with half this number of bolts. Another hint is the fact that the car was immatriculated in France: you will find many Renaults licensed in England (and even Scotland), but hardly if any Arrol-Johnston with a French license plate!

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Sconosciuto

09 Marzo 2016, 08:58

last picture (with the kids):
Arrol-Johnston?

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Sconosciuto

09 Marzo 2016, 06:18

Sir,
The first photograph depicts a Panhard et Levassor, of (I think) 1899 or 1900.
The second photograph depicts a Panhard et Levassor of about 1908.
The third picture IS a 1909 type AC4-D Clement, (IDENTICAL chassis were imported into London, where they were assembled and then sold as model CT4-D Talbots. The last photograph is undoubtedly a four-cylinder Renault, of about 1908. John Hughes (Australia)

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The François de Montferrand family Mysteries

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