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The Hotchkiss LL Mystery. (update: Lillie Langtry ?)
Long time readers of PreWarCar may remember the advert back in 2004 for abarnfound edwardian Limousine: a 1910 Hotchkiss 25 HP (corrrection: 45 HP 5,9 litre) located in France. This was the original text :
"Rare Hotchkiss with towncar coachwork - chauffeur driven with division - by AMIET (Rue Tournelle, Paris). Car must be restored completely but is unmolested. 4 cylinder 4,7 Litre."
The radical design limousine with its round radiator, curved quarter windows, curved roof lines and high mounted headlights is nothing less than spectacular in appearance. As if the ambassador of another galaxy has landed and unloaded his state limousine ...
To keep things short, early December 2004 the car was sold and moved from France to eclectic collector Steve Hamilton (USA) who loves unrestored french beauties. It took him eight years to not-restore the car in the way he liked. Basically everything of the car received proper attention without changing too much of the appearance. The old paintwork was - aside a good cleaning - left untouched. The handsome two pair four cylinder engine was cleaned, serviced and repaired as far as necessary. No polishing or other undesired actions were employed. The engine room looks as honest as a well maintained Edwardian engine can be. In fact it was only the interior that needed most as all upholstery had been eaten away or was rotted. For this reason Steve had the original textiles woven new in France exactly according to the patterning of a few remaining bits. The brilliant limousine is again ready for anything and anybody. Talking about people there is one big mystery remaining. Who was the nobility or family "LL" that had their initials painted on the doors? According to the known history the car was left alone since WWI. So the LL was painted there since new. Anybody who has a suggestion?
Pubblicato:
martedì dicembre 4th, 2012
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Commenti
Sconosciuto
08 Dicembre 2012, 16:51
i have had some nice old original cars over the years and most of them have been more interesting than the long line up of shiny over restored cars, if you can keep it original do so,
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Sconosciuto
08 Dicembre 2012, 16:44
ha so i am not knowledgeable and clearly silly, well i quite like silly, knowledgeable well you may be right there however. however i did not compare a 30/98 to a corsa. the point i was trying to make was peoples perceived perceptions. So again I say,,, Ask the average person to name a Vauxhall the reply will most likely be ,, Corsa.. It would also seem that you lot do not rate the corsa very highly for all the arm waving in the air, this is a shame as vauxhalls make fantastic cars. If you where indeed to compare a corsa with a 30/98 the average person would probably say that it is indeed a better car ,,, and i would hope so to... it would be faster, handle better, go round corners and would at least stop and start first time etc,,,,todays engineers are just as adept as they ever were.. Why not try this next time your at work, ask a work colleague which has more prestige a bentley or a vauxhall... then ask them to name a vauxhall ,,,, Or ask yourself what is better a 16hp/20hp jaguar or a 16hp/20hp standard.... and here is something for mr zip .... 8 years under restoration :at say 100 bucks an hour , 25 hours a week , 50 weeks a year = 1,000,000 bucks,,, completely sensible to me why bother with an old t shirt smeared with a few drops of oil...
If any of you want to lambast me further feel free,,, i have thoroughly enjoyed myself ,, thank you all for being so gentlemanly, such a hoot and so nice to boot.
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If any of you want to lambast me further feel free,,, i have thoroughly enjoyed myself ,, thank you all for being so gentlemanly, such a hoot and so nice to boot.
Sconosciuto
08 Dicembre 2012, 07:21
David Barker,
Quite agree with the crass comments re Vauxhall, clearly niot a very knowledgeable comment.
Surely this car is exactly what we should be aiming at, sympathetic renovation and retrospective repair work to catch up with the neglect of years to put the car into the condition it would have been had it continued to have been serviced, driven. maintained and cared for had it remained in use and cherished.
It isn't a new car. We all know it's not, so why try and make it one? What difference between a new body, new paint, new wheels, new upholstery etc etc etc and a completely new car or, only marginally worse, a kit-car?
I have a couple of old, mostly original 20's cars. I don't want any "old dogs", just rotten and hanging apart, but better that than some "Pebble Beach" pimped-up creation. Excellent for showcasing the car builders undoubted skills, but bugger-all about old cars! A Hot-Rod would be just as appropriate use of their skills.
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Quite agree with the crass comments re Vauxhall, clearly niot a very knowledgeable comment.
Surely this car is exactly what we should be aiming at, sympathetic renovation and retrospective repair work to catch up with the neglect of years to put the car into the condition it would have been had it continued to have been serviced, driven. maintained and cared for had it remained in use and cherished.
It isn't a new car. We all know it's not, so why try and make it one? What difference between a new body, new paint, new wheels, new upholstery etc etc etc and a completely new car or, only marginally worse, a kit-car?
I have a couple of old, mostly original 20's cars. I don't want any "old dogs", just rotten and hanging apart, but better that than some "Pebble Beach" pimped-up creation. Excellent for showcasing the car builders undoubted skills, but bugger-all about old cars! A Hot-Rod would be just as appropriate use of their skills.
Sconosciuto
06 Dicembre 2012, 23:28
I agree with Graham Button - silly comments about Vauxhalls and Bentleys; anyone who knows their Vintage Sports Cars would never compare a 30/98 with a Corsa! The Laurence Pomeroy designed Vauxhall 30/98 is considered by many to be one of the finest engineered British sporting cars of the Vintage period!
But this is not the issue!!!
Regardless of the make, model, year or value, where do we draw the lines between preservation, restoration, and re-creation?
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But this is not the issue!!!
Regardless of the make, model, year or value, where do we draw the lines between preservation, restoration, and re-creation?
Sconosciuto
06 Dicembre 2012, 22:05
To Graham Button: I suggest you control your finger ("silly comments" about Bentleys and Vauxhalls). The man asked a reasonable question that was germane to the topic, perhaps slightly tangential, but still germane. I and some others tried an answer. You may not agree with those answers, but you could be temperate in your disagreement.
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David Barker
06 Dicembre 2012, 19:54
Well said Graham!
For myself I am glad it has been sympathetically and sensibly restored rather than leave it in the now fashionable "oily rag" condition!
David Barker.
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For myself I am glad it has been sympathetically and sensibly restored rather than leave it in the now fashionable "oily rag" condition!
David Barker.
Sconosciuto
06 Dicembre 2012, 19:23
Firstly this is an early motorcar that has been preserved absolutely properly.
Secondly silly comments about Vauxhalls and Bentleys are irrelevant in relation to this topic.
Graham.
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Secondly silly comments about Vauxhalls and Bentleys are irrelevant in relation to this topic.
Graham.
Sconosciuto
06 Dicembre 2012, 15:18
Well thanks for taking the time to check Lillie's cipher, David, but you have to admit, wouldn't it be wonderful to link an already fantastic, enigmatic, and beautiful car to a woman that could be described equally so? By the way, thanks for the link!
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Sconosciuto
06 Dicembre 2012, 07:16
re Anonymous ... supply and demand springs to mind ... if you want Bentley prices better have for offer an 8l Bentley ,, a Vauxhall will always be a Vauxhall I am afraid,, sorry to say. Ask the average person to name a Vauxhall the reply will most likely be ,, Corsa. Lower the asking price and I am sure people will start stepping up to the plate. If the real world is too much to bear ship it to Monterey and believe the hype.. of course if it is so valuable why not keep it,, I would. all the best
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Sconosciuto
06 Dicembre 2012, 05:26
Sorry, Bill, but Lillie Langtry's monogram was easy to check; http://www.historyforsale.com/html/prodetails.asp?documentid=257394&start=1&page=1629
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Sconosciuto
06 Dicembre 2012, 04:24
Anonymous You have a very beautiful car that is a work of art..PLEASE dont let any auction house get a hold of it mainly RM Auctions...YOU WILL LOSE!!!!! Thanks for sharing the info and picture..
dear Karl Kahlberg, you come up with very vague accusations regarding auction housesd in general.... But of what? Did your car or cars sell for less money than you were dreaming of? When you have something concrete you want to talk about write us at [email protected] Joris Bergsma
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dear Karl Kahlberg, you come up with very vague accusations regarding auction housesd in general.... But of what? Did your car or cars sell for less money than you were dreaming of? When you have something concrete you want to talk about write us at [email protected] Joris Bergsma
Sconosciuto
06 Dicembre 2012, 04:13
Somehow I don't think that this vehicle is quite Lilly Langtry's style ! !
Not with her Royal connections and residing finally in Monaco, where she died in 1929, aged 76.
Stuart
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Not with her Royal connections and residing finally in Monaco, where she died in 1929, aged 76.
Stuart
Sconosciuto
05 Dicembre 2012, 23:58
In response to Hugh Ellis, a 1920 Vauxhall 30-98....
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Sconosciuto
05 Dicembre 2012, 23:38
The only real treasures are unmolested cars regardless of the make or model. To be able to own such frozen moments is a luxury . To preserve it is a community service as it records folk history . When will so-called car restorers stop and realise that most of their restorative work is Industrial Vandalism and many restorations use two-pack paintwork, philips head screws etc etc .Metallic paints were first used by Cadillac in 1929 .Bright colours were rarely available and brush painting was normal until around the late twenties .Fettish restorers chasing theri fantasies for red vintage cars with plastic upholstery are not doing any service to these precious cars . A time will come when collectable old cars wil be treated with the historic respect they deserve . The Hotchkiss is a precious example of a sensible and sensitive owner He must be congratualted . Many would have made a Munsters Coach Rod from it ! .... ( Philistines and vandals )
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Sconosciuto
05 Dicembre 2012, 20:53
Lovely restoration! For Anonymous- Oily Rag condition is far more desirable than you think! Take off the auctioneers selling and buying commissions and your restoration costs from the prices you have seen-and ask on Prewarcar for that! Easy!! Most of us are enthusiasts that value what you have and would pay you well for it. I wish you success. PS what do you have?? !!
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Sconosciuto
05 Dicembre 2012, 20:20
To Anonymous: Good question. It might depend on the car. The Bentley folks, for example, are still scrapping original bodies in favor of racing look-alikes, but even in that case some very high prices have been earned at auction for unmolested examples of choice cars. That might mean that only something really special, in the way of body and chassis, gets interesting as a preservation candidate.
I hope neither you nor the car will feel pain. Keep it as it is and keep looking for a buyer who appreciates it.
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I hope neither you nor the car will feel pain. Keep it as it is and keep looking for a buyer who appreciates it.
Sconosciuto
05 Dicembre 2012, 18:28
Lillie Langtry, Actress and longtime mistress of Edward VII - she lived primarily in Paris and Monaco after Edward died; Langtry died in Monaco in 1929.
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Sconosciuto
05 Dicembre 2012, 16:38
Congratulations on getting it right and doing it right, I only wish more people could see the differance.Comment 9 Anonymous, I understand just how you feel but don't do it ! Just double the price of yours because of it's rarity and then you have room to deal down in price !
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Sconosciuto
05 Dicembre 2012, 16:35
Anonymous:
Leave it alone, money isn't everything and it's only original once!!
You'll regret the money wasted and patina lost, there's no argument.
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Leave it alone, money isn't everything and it's only original once!!
You'll regret the money wasted and patina lost, there's no argument.
Sconosciuto
05 Dicembre 2012, 16:08
Steve, I am impressed once again with your historic consideration, and attention to detail- Wonderful project! This car must feel like Black Beauty; home at last.
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Sconosciuto
05 Dicembre 2012, 15:30
The Hotchkiss is a 45hp with 5.9 liter engine. I was very lucky to have so much of the car, for the interior all we had to replacce was some of the wool but all of the broadlace and special parts were there, lying unmolested for 100 years. I would love to thank the family that stored it all these years.
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Sconosciuto
05 Dicembre 2012, 15:18
100 years from now the museums will cherish the very few cars of the 20th century that have been preserved in their original condition. Cars that have survived in this condition are so rare that eventually their value will greatly exceed that of the more common restored automobiles. If you are one of the lucky ones that have a car that can be preserved make the decision to restore with great concern. It is only original once.
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Sconosciuto
05 Dicembre 2012, 15:07
easy, "Lady Luck" if you are passenger in those day's
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Sconosciuto
05 Dicembre 2012, 13:40
What a beast! Ugly and beautiful at the same time....
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Sconosciuto
05 Dicembre 2012, 13:33
That is a wonderful restoration for which the owner should be highly commended.
However, I’m struggling to gauge where the vintage car world is today on the issue of restoration or preservation.
I’ve requested that I remain anonymous because I’m trying to sell a very original and desirable vintage car. It has an original body, original upholstery, original registration number, very old “coach painted†paint work which is still in great condition, and yet the whole car has a very “used†look about it. Mechanically it has been completely rebuilt at huge expense and it’s probably one of the best of these models around.
My quandary is, very similar models of this car have recently sold for considerably more than my asking price. They however have been cars which have been beautifully presented with replica bodies, immaculate paintwork, shining nickel, and new upholstery - but some of them have been seriously tired mechanically.
I’m just about to “un-do†90 years of history and patination with a complete re-spray, reupholster, and re-nickel all the long-since-dulled shiny parts – and I’m not sure whose going to feel the most pain, me or the car!
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However, I’m struggling to gauge where the vintage car world is today on the issue of restoration or preservation.
I’ve requested that I remain anonymous because I’m trying to sell a very original and desirable vintage car. It has an original body, original upholstery, original registration number, very old “coach painted†paint work which is still in great condition, and yet the whole car has a very “used†look about it. Mechanically it has been completely rebuilt at huge expense and it’s probably one of the best of these models around.
My quandary is, very similar models of this car have recently sold for considerably more than my asking price. They however have been cars which have been beautifully presented with replica bodies, immaculate paintwork, shining nickel, and new upholstery - but some of them have been seriously tired mechanically.
I’m just about to “un-do†90 years of history and patination with a complete re-spray, reupholster, and re-nickel all the long-since-dulled shiny parts – and I’m not sure whose going to feel the most pain, me or the car!
Sconosciuto
05 Dicembre 2012, 13:32
You did it as one should allways do it for such important cars, preservation instead of restoration !
Congratulations.
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Congratulations.
Sconosciuto
05 Dicembre 2012, 10:54
A really fantastic job on this amazing rare car. Hope it wil apear a lot in public events so that everyone can be stuned ...
Wunder wat is your next project.
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Wunder wat is your next project.
Sconosciuto
05 Dicembre 2012, 10:31
Steve, Beautiful job on the Hotchkiss and your Voisin C25 (in the back) looks very pretty as well !
I don't think the LL is from a noble family : They would use there coat of arms.
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I don't think the LL is from a noble family : They would use there coat of arms.
william hearne
05 Dicembre 2012, 09:36
.... a lesson to us all in 'good taste'.
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Sconosciuto
05 Dicembre 2012, 08:31
Great job !
This is how it should be done.
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This is how it should be done.
Sconosciuto
05 Dicembre 2012, 07:24
The eight years were not wasted, Beautiful "Re-Commissioning"
Stuart
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Stuart
Sconosciuto
05 Dicembre 2012, 04:36
La Lique as the English would have had him, especially had they been able to make pre WW1 Paris Edwardian.
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Sconosciuto
05 Dicembre 2012, 01:06
What a nice automobile! Very beautiful.
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